mammasteed ([info]mammasteed) wrote,
@ 2009-01-05 19:01:00
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Post-cruise thoughts
I've been thinking since we left the cruiseship. There is one thing fundamentally wrong about cruising. Oh, don't get me wrong - I had the time of my life, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, I'm tempted to sign up for a LONGER cruise next time. Heh.

However, the fact remains that cruising is an environmentally unsound activity. You see, those huge ships eat up a lot of fossil fuel. They burn fuel from the moment they leave one dock until they arrive in the next dock. (I assume, though I don't really know for sure, that they shut off their engines while docked.... right???) And those ships are phenomenally huge - if you haven't seen a cruise ship up close, it's very difficult to imagine the scale and size of them. But if you can imagine how big they are, you can understand that something that large must require a lot of energy to move.

Of course, they pass the economic cost to the passengers. In addition to the cruise ticket, most cruiselines hide a "fuel surcharge" into the final fare you pay, which is, we presume, the current cost of the fuel the ship eats in a day of cruising divided by the number of passengers they expect to have on board. (Since the larger ships have many thousands of passengers, it's quite telling that fuel surcharges are often over $10 per day. Sure, some of that is the rising price of petroleum.... but even allowing for that, and corporate greed which may be padding the bill a bit, this still implies a LOT of fuel burned. How far does $10 take you in your car? And remember that they probably get wholesale prices better than the per-gallon prices you get at the pump!)

But anyway, I'm not bitching about the economics of fuel burned, or how they charge passengers for it. That's a fact of life, nothing more. I'm talking about the environmental consequences of all that fuel burned. The economics are just a handy way to talk about it, since I don't happen to know facts and figures (even generalizations or guesstimates) in terms of gallons or barrels. I'm sure these numbers are huge!

So, one cruise ship burns this massive amount of fuel per day, and all the serious commercial cruise ships are running every single day, without fail. We don't have an exact number, but if we did, we could then multiply it by the number of cruise ships currently in service worldwide (another number I don't happen to have, of course... but it's a fairly large number, probably in the high hundreds), and, whatever the final result is would probably be so astounding as to make me faint.

Fossil fuel is a LIMITED resource!

See the problem yet?


Now, having experienced a cruise, I can say that I definitely don't want to see the cruise industry disappear. But neither do I want to see that kind of fuel wastage continue. It's quite a conundrum.


So, after turning this over in my mind for a long time, I came up with this idea. There are ways to power a ship without fossil fuel. A ship could, in fact, pioneer alternative energy.

Two alternative energy ideas immediately spring to mind as useful for a ship:
1. Solar panels, of course. The typical cruise ship is cruising in wide-open, sunny waters.
a. When nowhere near shore, it could extend solar panels out over the water (to the sides) - These panels could fold up when approaching land. sure, that might spoil the view a bit, which is a little less romantic and a lot less picturesque, and that's certainly an issue. But if the ship needs more energy, it's a viable solution.
b. solar panels would fit nicely on top of things or pasted to the side of the ship, too - there's a lot of surface above the water.
2. Wave energy (or the energy of water movement). While this field is fairly undeveloped, there are many ways, most experimental, but some tried and true, to harness the power of water movement.
a. One of the most interesting methods that I happen to know about is a sock or "snake" that somehow collects energy just by hanging out underwater and getting batted around by the waves. Attach a few of these to the underside of the ship, and you've got some power. (Note that this is experimental, and some critics have raised the possibility that such a device could actually affect the patterns of the waves.... though I think that's more of a worry for a larger device, and something sized to fit on the underside of a cruiseship shouldn't cause any more disruption than an eel or a large fish....)
b. There is also the older technology of a wheel (a waterwheel, I think they're called) on the back of the ship. I believe those are great for keeping a boat going once it is already under way.... And it's darn cute to look at, too! Nostalgia is design is in!
Note::: Yes, the old paddleboats pushed the boat and required power to make them move, but there's no reason why a paddle that collects energy instead couldn't be installed... is there???? Not that I'm an expert on these things....

Anyway.... those are just ideas that I could think of. I'm sure that there are many other possibilities that I haven't thought of, and it's likely that some of those are even better than the ones I've come up with. (Remember, I am not an expert in this field... or even anything close....)


So, having come up with this idea, I wonder.... could an idea like this transform the market?

You see, environmentally speaking, replacing fossil fuels with renewable and non-polluting energy is definitely an excellent idea.

For that matter, while it might be more expensive to build such a ship, it would be cheaper to run a ship like this, making it a more economical option. With less cost to run the ship, the ship could make more profit, and/or reduce the cost of the ticket (the real cost, including eliminating fuel surcharges).

Many passengers or potential passengers on cruise ships cite the price of the cruise (either total, or per day) as a significant factor in their choice of which ship to sail, or even whether to sail at all. This means more passengers, because the cruise could cost less than competitors who offer the exact same amenities but use fossil fuel. Or, the cruise could cost the same, but offer more amenities, making it more attractive because it gives you more for the same dollar.

So, for that reason alone, it seems to me that it ought to be a great idea for the market.


But, here's another issue, and one I don't know the answer to. What would potential passengers think?

In other words, if person A is going to sail on a cruise, but is not sure which one yet, would knowing that one cruise uses alternative energy matter to person A? (Yes, I know, it will matter to some people, and not to others... but HOW MANY?)

Or, perhaps I should frame the question as, how many people would give each of these answers:

A. I've never been on a cruise and I never will be, no matter what.
B. I would never cruise on a traditional cruise ship, but I would (or at least I might) cruise on a ship using alternative energy.
C. I would certainly cruise on a traditional ship, but I would prefer to cruise on a ship using alternative energy. This is true even if it costs me a little bit more or is less convenient.
D. I would certainly cruise on a traditional ship, but I would prefer to cruise on a ship using alternative energy. This is true as long as all things are equal or better otherwise - that is, the alternative energy cruise costs the same or less, the amenities I care about are the same or better, and the itinerary is as convenient as the alternative. I would still sail on a traditional ship if the alternative energy cruise was more expensive or otherwise inferior in some way, but I would prefer the alternative energy ship as long as it were able to match the traditional ship.
E. I'm up for it if it saves me money or is more convenient, but I care more about price, itinerary, amenities, or other factors than I do about the energy source used by the ship.
F. I wouldn't trust a ship powered by alternative energy, or I just don't like alternative energy on principle, and I wouldn't sail on one. I prefer the traditional ships.



Or, to make it a more personal question, if a company asked these questions, what would you say?


Anyway, I wonder what the distribution of answers would be, if someone undertook this survey on a massive scale.

It seems to me that such a cruise ship would be viable for people answering E, because I believe it would, indeed, save enough money for the company that it could cut ticket prices compared to other cruises with comparable itineraries and amenities.

However, an investor throwing around money would probably think it would be a better match for people answering B, C, or D. So, if the world has reached a point where the market overwhelmingly answers B, C, or D, then it's time for this idea.

Anyway, just some thoughts for an evening...



(Post a new comment)

Wind power?
[info]unix_vicky
2009-01-06 01:31 am UTC (link)
You know... I think wind power is an excellent idea. In fact, I seem to recall some ships that may have used this alternative energy in the past. :-)

Seriously, though, cruises on sailing ships seems to be a popular idea, though I haven't yet looked into prices.

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Re: Wind power?
[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 01:36 am UTC (link)
Oh, duh! Yes, of course! How could I be so dumb as to not think of that?

Thanks for the thoughts and double thanks for the link! Nifty!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ponderoid
2009-01-06 01:38 am UTC (link)
How far does $10 take you in your car?


BOTE calculation... Say gas is currently $2.50/gallon, and you've got an econobox that gets 30 mpg... That comes to 120 miles. It's about 300 miles between Key West and Cozumel.

*** Ponder

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Mileage
[info]unix_vicky
2009-01-06 02:14 am UTC (link)
And, according to this, the QE2 (another cruise ship) gets somewhere around 30 feet/gallon. Which comes out to over 150 gallons/mile... That gets better when you consider that you're carrying around 2500 people (on the Carnival Imagination... different than the QE2).

Another post says 50 feet per gallon (at fastest speed, 28 knots), she gets 15 (if computed based on 1900 passengers) or 23 MPG (if you add in 1015 crew). At regular cruising speed of 20 knots, it comes out to 45 MPG for each of her 1900 passengers or 69 MPG if you include the 1015 crew.

So, I guess you could say it's comparable to a car, depending on how many people are in the car.

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Re: Mileage
[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 02:36 am UTC (link)
So, according to http://www.roblightbody.com/liners/qe-2/QE2_fuel_economy.htm (which Vicky also linked to and quoted):

at 28 knots:
* That's 18 MPG for each of her 1900 Passengers or 27.6 MPG if you include the 1015 crew - In US Terms: 15 or 23 MPG


at 20 knots:
* That's 45 MPG for each of her 1900 passengers or 69 MPG if you include the 1015 crew


Verbally, ponder was telling me that ships are "the most efficient means of transport on the planet" - which may or may not be true, I wouldn't know. The QEII may not be the most efficient ship on the planet per passenger, but let's assume she is representative. So, assuming she is carrying a full passenger load, she is indeed more efficient per person than a car carrying one passenger at cruising speed but less efficient at fastest speed; comparable to a car carrying two passengers at cruising speed, and not so good when people are seriously carpooling.

So, if you stuffed four people in a car and drove to Cozumel, assuming you didn't drown in the process, you'd get better gas mileage :)



But even so - the cruise ships run a set schedule. They carry thousands of passengers (the QEII apparently carries 1900, but the Carnival Imagination carries more than that.... according to wikipedia, 2634 passengers (all berths) and 920 crew. That's a lot of people.... and a lot of gas burned.

You see, the gas is burned, regardless of how efficient it is. Once burned, it's gone forever. The people it services is not a justification for the fuel burned, but a reason to save. For every one of those people, if you save the fuel, you've made a huge difference.



Regardless of how it compares to cars, just think of the environmental good it would do to stop the fuel burned EVERY DAY by just one ship.

Sure, you'd get more total good out of making everyone trade in their old fuel-burning cars for something that runs on alternative fuel. But that's not the point. The point is, that ONE SHIP carries thousands of people every day, and ONE SHIP can make a difference. A single car makes a lot less difference. For one thing, it's only one car of billions worldwide. For another thing, no one car is on the move nearly 24/7.... whereas all commercial cruise ships are on the move pretty close to that. Yes, cruise ships do spend time in port, but they spend more time on the move than they do docked!

So.... I say, start with ONE SHIP. Prove it's a great idea. Then other ships will do it do. And maybe, just maybe, cars will follow.

Or am I totally crazy?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Mileage
[info]unix_vicky
2009-01-06 02:43 am UTC (link)
No, you're not crazy. I keep pointing this out to people when they criticize electric cars as not being as efficient per gallon of fossil fuel</a>. That's not the point. The point is that an electric car can run on anything that generates electricity. Solar, nuclear, geothermal, etc. By the time enough people switch over to electric cars, we should be generating most electricity via some other means than fossil fuels.

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Re: Mileage
[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 03:02 am UTC (link)
Yes, I think that's a key point. Efficiency isn't the important factor - it's how much fossil fuel you burn. Fossil fuel won't come back. What it will do, however, is sit in the atmosphere and change our weather :)

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Re: Mileage
[info]ponderoid
2009-01-06 02:43 am UTC (link)
It's better than a car by far, considering the fact that it's not just the passengers & crew its carrying, but all the facilities too. You can't cram a hotel room into your econo-box. :)

In terms of fuel efficiency for amount of sheer mass moved, I believe large ships beat almost every other form of transportation on Earth by a large margin, with the possible exception of railroads.

The most environmentally friendly way to power a cruise ship (and every other large ship) would be nuclear. Too bad that can't be sold politically.

I don't feel like digging for exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure the overall economic and environmental impact of all the world's cruise ships is a drop in the bucket compared to the world's automobiles and power generation. There's on the order of a few hundred cruise ships in active service? Compare that to billions of automobiles. I bet you won't come close to balancing the scales even if you include all of the world's ocean-going vessels when compared to how much fuel the world's cars and trucks burn and convert to pollution in the environment.

*** Ponder

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Re: Mileage
[info]unix_vicky
2009-01-06 02:49 am UTC (link)
Well, if you're trying to convince me not to drive a hotel room down to Mexico, then you've succeeded. Well done. :-)

And I think [info]mammasteed was trying to say that taking a cruise-ship is worse for the environment than sitting home. Are you saying it's better? I would certainly bow to your expertise (and vast experience) in sitting at home.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Mileage
[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 03:00 am UTC (link)
Yes, true. My immediate and firm reaction to the idea of nuclear power is - *I* would not ride on a ship that's powered by nuclear fuel. I would stay far, far, far away from it.

Nuclear is scary. Nuclear means glowing bones and stuff :)


Every drop in the bucket counts. You could, of course, dismiss everything in the world as insignificant by itself. You could belittle doing anything because it wouldn't be big enough.

But the fact is, you have to start somewhere.

I don't know how many giant cruise ships there are. I think there are hundreds, but not thousands. But that's only what I think. I read somewhere that the industry puts around 9 new ships into service every year, so that suggests hundreds, but not thousands. But again, I just don't know.

Still.

One cruisebship is worth a lot of cars, in many ways. It carries more people. It travels more. It is MORE VISIBLE. I think the more visible thing is key.

I'm certainly in favor of turning the world's cars and power generators into sustainable energy too.... Why don't we do it all? :)


But SOME PEOPLE would probably say that we can't fix the world's cars because the problem is too big, even in the same breath where they dismiss cruise ships for being too small :)

So... if you're going to make it a "one or the other" thing, I think the cruise ship is a realistic place to start. You have to start somewhere.

But that's just me :)


I will say, however, that I did not realize that ships were so efficient before this discussion - you've taught me something :)

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Re: Mileage
[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 03:10 am UTC (link)
OH, P.S. I definitely wanted to say thank you for posting and for sharing these thoughts. Very interesting stuff! EVen if I seem to be arguing with you, I'm glad for the thoughts!!!

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[info]maugorn
2009-01-06 06:05 am UTC (link)
The problem, the current problem with alternative energy sources really is that hydrocarbon fuels pack an OBSCENE amount of energy into each and every molecule and that accessing this amount of energy is as easy as sucking it out of the ground and then refining it, which is not much.

Getting the same amount of energy out of a solar panel takes a whole lot more solar acreage than you would believe. The solar panels to run a cruise ship right now really would be impractical to haul around and maintain,
because you'd need a lot more, and I mean ALOT, A WHOLE LOT MORE than you're envisioning.

What's more, right now, RIGHT NOW, the cost for a solar panel is still very high, so by the time you acquire (which right now is still to spend for) the energy it takes to build a solar panel, and then acquire as much energy out of it as their current useful life span, you're still barely breaking even.

On a cost basis, alas and alack, petroleum is just so far below every other curve that replacing it with an alternative is really enough to bankrupt a cruise line. We are talking that much energy, versus that much cost. Really.

And then there's the other problem with solar, which is that the panels are NOT very hardy, and that the sea is actually a very rough environment, and that your power curve goes down exponentially when there's less light (like from clouds, fog, and assorted other sea perils, oh, and there's also night time)

Wind, power for a ship that big isn't going to give you enough to move it at a big speed, and paddle wheels take energy to move, they don't conserve momentum when you're moving that much stuff through such a frictional environment. Yes water creates a whole lot of friction, that's why you have to keep paddling if you want to keep moving.

Wave power is promising for powering things on land because it needs to work on the *differences* in height and the different energy potentials between the wave and a stationary object. A ship floats, which means it's riding on the waves. The wave energy passes thru the ship. Stopping that energy would mean the ship would have to cease to be *floating* on the ocean.

And yes, if you suck that energy out of ocean waves, on a large enough scale there will be environmental consequences. Wave motion does affect the coastal environments, and we don't yet know how much of the ecosystems are caused by the effects of the waves hitting the shore.

I'm no fan of burning carbon and it has GOT TO STOP.
But the reason why it's proving to be so hard is that the global appetite for energy is on such a scale that replacing hydrocarbon as a fuel is going to cost us so bloody much, first for the retooling, and then for whatever it costs us to obtain energy from (whatever) source. Those numbers are mindbogglingly big. And cruise ships, being the size of a small city, are pretty much going to require a solution that is practical for a small sized city.

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[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 08:09 pm UTC (link)
*sigh* If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.... I guess I was naive to think that alternative energy would save money. It seems like it really should. I mean, with the cost of petroleum rising and rising, the cost of alternative energy becomes more competitive (even if it isn't falling). I would have thought they'd about evened out by now. Are you sure?

Yes, I know that solar panels only work when there's something to gather (like, not at night, heh), but I thought you could store excess in a battery and use it later. I guess I'm naive on how much electricity a solar panel makes. *sigh* again. Perhaps in a few more years, the panel technology will have improved and the cost will have dropped? One can hope :)

You know, that wave energy thing sounds rather sinister. Large wind farms often report local changes in wind patterns when too many windmills are concentrated in one area. This may be the same sort of thing. And that's VERY BAD. In addition to affecting coastal environments, the ocean interacts with the air, exchanging gases (the ocean is a carbon sink, of sorts). It also more directly affects coral reefs and other aquatic wildlife, probably in zillions of ways we don't understand.

Okay, so my ideas were naive.... I do like yours below, though....

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[info]maugorn
2009-01-06 06:07 am UTC (link)
For something that big, a nuclear plant is the most practical solution if you're not burning fuel. But there's enough of a problem with piracy as it is, *I'm* not gonna put fissionable material on a cruise ship where a handful of guys with machine guns can get it.

IF, a cruise ship could be changed over to run electrically (and this change is going to be as expensive as swapping out a power plant for a small city), then there can be some significant gains some day, as battery power and solar cells become more efficient.

There is a lot of fuss being given to hydrogen fuel cells as a green alternative too. The problem there is that it takes more energy to get the hydrogen than you get when you burn it. It's those damn chemical reactions that don't happen unless you put in a set amount of energy, that you just have to get from somewhere.

BUT, here's the nifty thing: A fuel cell generating electricity from hydrogen would be a great thing to use on the sea because your waste products are heat and water. So the problem becomes either hydrogen storage or energy storage. If you go the hydrogen storage route, then a dedicated electrolysis plant on shore can be run by solar power, if it's big enough to generate enough hydrogen to do it. Once it's set up, operating costs go DOWN, because your energy is "free". And the nice thing about going that way, is that even pressurised hydrogen is a very light cargo. Most of your weight comes from what you have to do to contain hydrogen, which is actually quite the problem and very dangerous if you fail.

The problem you need to overcome storing the electricity is that our current batter technology, while getting better, still sucks. That's just a matter of time IMHO, but it's not there yet. Not for a cruise ship.

Sadly, we need to work on these alternatives ALOT before one of them is proven a viable alternative to carbon. The problem keeps being just how bloody far we need to go before we reach the point that petroleum is at now.
It's gonna take time and/or HUGE amounts of money. There's just no way around it.

A cruise ship, while an attractive model, because of the cost to the folks who run them, is probably NOT going to happen without major (ie, governmental) subsidy/sponsorship, and that would be a real hard sell to make to tax or share holders.

What MIGHT work, is to use cruise ship sized vessels as experimental platforms for pollution capture schemes. THAT could get funding, I bet.

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[info]mammasteed
2009-01-06 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Wow. These are some brilliant ideas. You are totally amazing!

I don't know how easy or hard it might be to change over an existing cruise ship, but there is definitely no reason why a NEW cruise ship couldn't be designed to run off electricity. So, assuming battery technology improves, a battery-powered ship sounds really great.

And that hydrogen-powered idea sounds awesome. I think that's the best idea of them all. The "it's dangerous if you fail to contain the hydrogen properly" thing is a bit worrisome, especially on a large cruise ship (think of all those people, and one of which could be stupid enough to accidentally or purposely sabotage the works - even though, of course, passengers aren't allowed anywhere near the works). But assuming you have good security and competent people handling the hydrogen, it sounds about as close to perfect as humans can get. This is brilliant.

I'd love to hear you expand on using a cruise ship sized vessel as an experimental platform for pollution capture. That definitely sounds promising. I think you're absolutely right that such a scheme could get funding, if it was presented well and sounded like a viable scheme....


Did I say thanks for these great comments? :)


Oh, and I never even considered piracy, but now that you've brought it up, yeah, I definitely see the problem with fissionable material there :)

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